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Fuel Pump? 2003 Feb Matt

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Fuel Pump? February 18 2003 at 5:16 PM Matt   (Login matts222)
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from IP address 204.213.65.73
I am wondering if my car is getting adequate fuel. It is a 351C 4V Closed Chamber ~11.0:1 compression, Speed Demon 650 VS Carb, Blue Thunder High Rise Dual Plane intake, Hooker Headers, Crane Hyd. Roller Cam - 228/232 Dur. @ .050 and .597/.609 gross lift, Roller rockers, complete MSD ignition, FMX Tranny w/TCI Breakaway converter (about 2600-2800 stall) and 3.90:1 gears. Rpm range is up to ~6500 but haven't taken it there yet due to very few miles and other problems. I am running a stock pump. Should I upgrade? If so, what to? Who offers a good fuel pump that will fit a Cleveland? I called Barry Grant and they said I need around 130 gph but they don't have one that will fit a stock ford block? What do you guys think? What fuel pumps are you running? A lot of questions, I know. By the way, it is in a 1969 Mach1 Mustang. Thanks!
 
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Ben Sinclair 
(Login duplox)
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12.243.130.105
a block off plate fits nicely... February 18 2003, 6:40 PM 
 
mechanical fuel pumps are generally tossed for electric fuel pumps once you get over the 'mildly modified' mark. They're not too expensive.. the holley blue pump is a favorite for cheap performance. As someone(i forgot who) said "yeah they're noisy, but at least you know they're working". I have one in my 69 mustang(a coupe, though) with a cleveland. Its worked great for me. I personally ran a holley 600cfm vac. secondary carb on mine, but it fell flat at 5000rpm, if that. It took it forever to break 75mph. It got to 70 in a flash though! The combination of a c6, 2v heads, performer intake, a 600cfm carb, and 4.20 rearend gears does not lend itself to high top speeds... god that thing pulled though. I got a lot of "holy s**t"s from passengers who were used to the stock clevelands/m's in their 5000lb broncos.
 
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Matt 
(Login matts222)
Member
204.213.65.160
Re: a block off plate fits nicely... February 18 2003, 7:19 PM 
 
What are the advantages of mechanical and electric fuel pumps? Where can you get a block off plate? If you do block it off, where do you mount the electric fuel pump (in engine compartment, by rear gas tank, etc.)? Anyone?
 
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Gary Orris 
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12.102.77.42
electric February 18 2003, 9:39 PM 
 
The only advantage I can see with a mechanical is that you don't have to do any plumbing. 
 
Get the Holley blue along with a pre-filter and mount the pump close to the tank, as low as possible but still out of harm's way. The pre-filter shouldn't be so fine that it can stop up the flow and then cause problems for the pump. In fact, they actually recommend two filters in parallel. I'm not sure how important it is to put another filter after the pump since there is going to be a filter in the carburetor, but if you can find a place for it in the plumbing, you might as well go all out. And a pressure gauge right next to the carburetor is neat. 
Places that specialize in wiring like to sell a device that shuts off power to the pump if the engine's not running. Or the same thing might be in your harness. I think Ron Francis Wire Works also has something that shuts off power in the event of a collision. Or perhaps you can come up with a wiring plan of your own that will address these safety issues.
Most of the stuff can be picked up thru Summit or Jegs. If you get carried away on fancy fittings the whole thing can get rather pricey.
I don't know what the lifespan of electric is in relation to mechanical, but I am going to go out on a limb and say 2-3 times. And once installed, I think its much easier to replace an electical pump, although that bias comes from changing a mechanical on a Chevy 396 vs an electrical on a Mercedes 230 SL and an MGA.
 
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Russ
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65.166.222.29
Re: Fuel Pump? February 19 2003, 1:01 AM 
 
You have almost the same build as what I am planning.
I have a 351c 2 bolt main with custom race pistons and a 393 scat stroker crank, comp cams hyd. roller 
#32-541-8 with .578 lift
4v closed chamber heads, edelbrock torker manifold, and plan on using at least a 750cfm carb. 
I do plan on using an electric pump with a regulator in the engine compartment.
 
By the way how do you like your hyd. roller retrofit cam ? 
Does it perform substantially better than your old cam?
 
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Matt 
(Login matts222)
Member
204.213.65.22
Re: Re: Fuel Pump? February 19 2003, 4:29 PM 
 
I don't know what I am going to do now (mechanical or electric). Everyone seems to say electric, but that it is a little bit of work to get it right. And nobody has told me where do you get a block off plate???
 
There were a lot of problems with my old engine. The original builder did a piss poor job on everything. 2 Examples: 1. The cam wasnt degreed in right so the engine made next to no vacuum and poor power. 2. One cylinder was rusted out, and he was supposed to hone it out, but he didnt according to our new builder, and we have pictures to prove it. Needless to say, there is a big improvement in performance now, but I still have a lot of tuning left, and I havent taken it up to max power around 6500 rpm yet. Once everything is up and running, I will post again, but I really like it so far--expensive, but good. We'll see.
 
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Kirk
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66.233.44.172
Electric pump etc. February 19 2003, 5:28 PM 
 
Matt,
 
You definitely need to run an electric pump. The holley Blue pump is my choice personally. It also comes with the adjustable regulator preset at 5 psi. I think that pump costs about $100 from Summit. Get some 3/8 minimum preferribly 1/2 inch aluminum line as well (about $30) and a couple of fittings. The Sumitt adjustable fuel line is extremely nice as well and it even has a fuel pressure gauge ($40). Mount the pump around your trunk area and run the fuel line up under your car usually along the transmission tunnel and up to your passenger side firewall. Mount your regulator there and then finish the lines from here to your carburetor. Anyone with a little mechanical know how can install all this in a couple of hours. It took me about 3 hours from start to finish. I wired the the pump to a toggle switch and my ignition. When I turn the key the pump comes on but I can manually turn it on or off by the toggle switch. As for the fuel pump block off, I bought mine of Ebay for $10. If I'm not mistaken I think Ford Racing makes one for the cleveland.
 
Good Luck
 
Kirk
 
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Ben Sinclair 
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12.243.130.105
yep February 19 2003, 7:14 PM 
 
i have a nice chromed block off plate that has the "ford motorsport" imprinted in it... beats me if they still make it, i found it in the giant box of crap the guy who sold me the car gave me. It looked better than his spraypainted homemade one, so i put it on. its pretty.
 
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Wade K. 
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24.117.240.56
I made my own Block off plate February 19 2003, 5:32 PM 
 
for the fuel pump hole. What I did was pull the fuel pump, punched a hole in a piece of notebook paper, slide the arm of the pump into the hole of the paper, slide the paper up to the base of the pump, trace around the sides of the pump mounting. Then cut this out of the paper and trace onto a piece of scrap steel. Cut out and deburr the steel. Drill holes for the bolts, powder coat and trace the plate onto gasket material and install onto your motor. There you have it!
 
I have seen a couple for sale but they were way to exspensive. I don't remember where.
 
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Gary Orris 
(no login)
12.102.77.42
block off plates February 19 2003, 8:19 PM 
 
I like Wade's best not just because of the powder coat, but because of the personal touch. But if you're busy with other personal touches:
 
www.summitracing.com
 
Mr. Gasket
 
MRG-1517 block off plate chrome fuel pump Ford 351C,
351M, and 400M $5.95
 
You should also be able to special order it through a local auto parts store like AutoZone, but they'll double the price. Then again, if that's all you're ordering from Summit, it's the same gouge in a way due to shipping.
 
 
 
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Matt 
(Login matts222)
Member
204.213.65.138
A few more ?'s February 19 2003, 5:47 PM 
 
I already have stainless steel lines running from my tank to my old pump. Will these work? I will check size and get back to you. I would prefer not to have to run new lines as these were a little expensive. And are there any more suggestions for pumps? Or does everyone think the Holley "blue" is by far the best? Will it fit my application (specs above)? Any other pumps worth looking at? How do you wire it to start and shut off with the ignition? Just a few more ?'s. Thanks!
 
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Matt 
(Login matts222)
Member
150.199.195.157
Anyone??? February 20 2003, 2:19 PM 
 
No responses yet to my question of whether I should consider any other electric fuel pumps or just get the Holley "blue". Will it fit my application? Is this by far the best all around street/strip pump, or what? Also, how do you wire it up to the ignition--and with a switch if possible? Do you just take a positive wire to the selenoid? Please help me out as I would like to order tomorrow. Thanks!
 
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Ben Sinclair 
(Login duplox)
Moderators
12.243.130.105
response February 20 2003, 3:22 PM 
 
holley blue is a great pump for the price. if you're made of money, the next step up(i think its the Holley "black") couldn't hurt, but would most likely be overkill. wiring isnt too difficult, and someone else who posted on this thread said how they did it, including a switch to turn it on and off. The pump can be installed in a few hours.
 
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Adam
(no login)
210.54.126.210
Re: anyone??? February 20 2003, 10:16 PM 
 
To wire it to your ignition.
find they ignition controlled live feed on your fuse box.
Run a wire through a suitably rated fuse, to the controll side of a relay.
From the battery or a live terminal on the fuse box,again through a fuse, run a wire to the switched terminal on the relay, and from the other switched terminal run a wire to your pump kill switch.
Then wire from the kill switch to the positive terminal on the pump. 
Negative pump terminal to a good earth as close as possible to the pump.
Dont forget to wire the earth terminal on the relay or you will spend hours wondering why none of your new gear works!
 
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Chris Kelly
(no login)
64.216.57.67
Electric Pump February 20 2003, 11:34 PM 
 
I prefer the Mallory pumps. I run a 140 GPH now and like it very much. It's a LOT quieter than the Holley. Be warned, the Holley is LOUD. You use a 30 amp relay to trigger a big pump. The ignition closes the relay. You need a good feed to the pump from the battery - like a #12 at least, #10 better. Fuse everything. Do NOT try to run them off the ignition - they can pull too much current. Also, these big pumps like return style regulators, which require another line back to the tank. The Holley has a dead head regulator, which helps keep the pump loud.
 
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Super Roo
(no login)
142.165.184.138
why not keep it simple February 21 2003, 12:15 AM 
 
I see your specs and you don't really need a electric pump. A mechanical will do the job. You can still get the holley from summit [almost obsolete] Mallory has a new mechanical job also. Go to the mr. gasket site and take a boo.
 
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Tom C.
(no login)
63.226.25.23
Yes, simple... February 21 2003, 10:31 AM 
 
What leads you to believe you aren't getting enough fuel? Is it doing something to make you think this... or do they just look cool in the summit catalog? Not that there is anything wrong with looking cool...
Tom C.
 
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Chris Kelly
(no login)
64.216.57.67
Yea - If I'd been thinking February 21 2003, 5:00 PM 
 
Your motor will eat every bit of a 70GPH pump, I'll bet. A performance mechanical can deliver this and more. HOWEVER, you need to be sure you have at least 3/8 feed from the tank. Mine had a severe bottleneck in the feed tube through the sender mount at the tank. So, you may have to fab a good pickup (or not). Which is why I overkilled with #10 to pump and #8 everywhere else. I'll be ready for my blown 408 that spns to 11,000 yuk-yuk-yuk.
 
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Matt 
(Login matts222)
Member
204.213.65.127
Installation Instructions February 21 2003, 6:41 PM 
 
Ok, well I needed to finish things up on the car this weekend, so I ordered a Holley Blue Electric pump and it came today. So no going mechanical now. In the installation instructions, it only told how to install it using the "recommended" oil pressure safety (i think thats what it was called) Anyway, can you install the pump without this? Because I have to do it this weekend, and I can't get one, unless they have one at the local parts store. Secondly, there is only one wire, why do you need so many relays/fuses? Can you not just connect that one wire to the selenoid or splice it into the ignition switch wire? Please explain why there needs to be so many relays. Ill be putting it in tomorrow, so I might have more questions, but thanks for the advice and answers in advance.
 
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Adam
(no login)
203.96.111.237
Re: instalation instructions February 21 2003, 6:50 PM 
 
You only need one relay.
You also need a fuse for the controll side of the relay, and one for the power supply from the battery.
You can't run the one wire that you have directly from the ignition as the ignition system is not designed to have 30 odd amps of current draw on it and would be a fire risk!
the low current side of your solenoid has the same sort of problem. All your solenoid is, is a big f**k off relay.
It's not hard to wire up. one wire from ignition controlled live feed to a $10 relay.
One wire from the battery to one of the "switched" terminals on the relay.
One wire from the other "switched" terminal to the wire you already have with the pump(or just use the supplied wire if it's long enough).
If the pump earths though its body as some do then you don't need an earth wire.
If you want a kill switch, wire it into either the supply wire to the pump, or the wire to the "contactor" side of the relay.
If you don't wire it correctly you could at worst cause an electrical fire, which no-one needs in their pride and joy. If you feel that wiring it up is a little beyond you an Auto sparky could probably do it in an hour.

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